'Insiders' is the UK's first professionally produced independent martial arts action feature and Steve Lawson and Simon Wyndham are the two men behind this history making moment.  Hopefully, the film is set to hit a DVD store near you soon but in the meantime, DDUK caught up with them to discuss life, the universe and the art of filmmaking. 

DDUK: Firstly, tell us a little about your interest in Martial Arts and what, if any, formal training you may have had.

Simon Wyndham: I have been interested in martial arts for many years. I originally practised Ju Jitsu, but not too seriously at the time. When I discovered Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung I started practising various movements that are more suited to shooting film fights. It was in my mid/late teens that I took up Wing Chun kung fu, and I have been practising seriously ever since. Although I still practise various kicks etc for film fighting, I don't have much personal interest in acrobatics.

Steve Lawson: Well funnily enough, despite the films I make I was never a serious martial artist. I am just interested in seeing the body in motion, be it in martial arts, gymnastics, stunt work or anything else. Something that really interests me, for example, is the sport of Free Running - not that I've tried it! But seeing those guys in motion as they jump between buildings or scale walls is quite amazing. Having said that, I have studied Tae Kwon Do and Wing Chun, which is a pretty good combination for film fighting as Tae Kwon Do gives you the flexibility you need for kicking, and Wing Chun builds up your arms.

It was actually seeing Jackie Chan in action in the late eighties that got me interested in learning a martial art, but even then, it was not so much his martial arts skills that appealed to me as the way he created and filmed physical action scenes. There is still nobody on this planet who can shoot physical action better than Jackie Chan, and I wish he would go back to directing his own movies.

DDUK: So who or what inspired you to get into the film industry and how did you break in?

Simon: For me it was a case of finding out how filmmakers did what they did. My original interest in filmmaking came from a CGI point of view. I used to create graphics for games for release onto the public domain back in the days of the Atari ST and Amiga. One thing that fascinated me was how guys such as James Cameron managed to make the CGI look like it was part of the picture. I was also interested in the lighting and how things were cheated to look good for the screen. Then of course I discovered Jackie Chan, and then HK action cinema in general. My interest in CGI waned and I became more a fan of real stunts, and a more gritty, raw look to films.

As for breaking into the film industry, I'm not sure one can ever consider themselves a true part of the industry until they have made a
film that has made a lot of money. Once that has been achieved people phone you up rather than the other way around! We have yet to reach that point!

Steve: Yes, as Simon says, I wouldn't say that we have truly broken into the film industry. In a sense, we have ignored the industry and just gone out and done our own thing, which appeals to me more anyway. I've always been more a fan of indepent films than blockbusters, there's just something appealing about seeing a film that is the result of the director's own passion, blood, sweat and tears.

I have been a film-maker all my life, even before I had a camera I was making films in my head. I can't remember a time when I wasn't interested in making films.

DDUK: Which of your past projects are you proudest of and why?

Simon: As Steve will tell you, I'm never too proud of stuff we have made! I always think we can do better. However so far I think 'Insiders' was an achievement. It is a whole different kettle of fish to make a feature length production rather than a short. Further more we were working to a tight schedule for most of the production. Creating any form of fight action in such a way is very difficult.

Steve: Yes, 'Insiders' was a big achievement, and I'm also proud of the short film that I made on my own a few years ago called 'Dead Lane'. Technically it's not as good as 'Insiders' because I didn't have someone with Simon's skills to help with the post-production, but I think it still stands up as an entertaining movie. It's got a lot of stunts and action so I'm happy with it!

DDUK: Have you worked with any movie stars yet and who would you most like to work with if you could?

Simon: For me I would like to work with any of the greats from 70's kung fu cinema! I would also like to work with David Hemmings, and Monica Bellucci!

Steve: The closest I got to working with a famous person was on the movie 'The Hours' where I was in the background of a scene with Nicole Kidman! It was very interesting to see how a big-budget movie is made, their organisation seemed actually to be worse than on a Phoenix-i production! As for our own movies, we came close to having a 'name' actor in 'Insiders' but it fell through and there wasn't time to find someone else, so the whole role was scrapped.

I don't really dream of working with my favourite actors, I'd rather work with performers who might actually benefit from my direction. I'd love to direct Jean Claude Van Damme in a film, because he has shown he can be good, but has ruined his career with a lot of terrible films. And although I'd never dare to direct it, I'd like to write a script for Jackie Chan, because the scripts in his Hong Kong/international movies are just so terrible it's incredibly frustrating.

DDUK: If you had infinite resources and could make the perfect film, what would u make?

Simon: I'd make a real kung fu movie. One that cannot be accused of being an art film, nor lacking in story. I'd also like to make a spy film to show all these pretenders these days how it should be done, and that includes the producers of the James Bond films!

Steve: I have a dream project which actually is also a spy film, though not of the sort that Simon is into. It would be a $200 million action comedy called 'Defectors', in which Jackie Chan and Sly Stallone play secret agents from the 1980's who are called out of retirement to go into action in Russia. The only problem is that Chan and Stallone are getting a bit long in the tooth and I'm still a long way off of securing a $200 million budget! But I do have the script hidden away somewhere just in case.

DDUK: You have started your own production company by the name of Phoenix-i, how was the name conceived?

Simon: The name Phoenix-i was conceived from a combination of ideas. The Phoenix from the fire, the fire being the uphill struggle of making this stuff, and also the Phoenix Eye martial art. Straight and to the point.

Steve: Yeah, Phoenix-i was Simon's idea. We went through about a hundred other names before coming to that one though! Some of the ones we nearly used were awful!

DDUK: You work very closely together, both in front of and behind the camera, does your partnership always work well?

Simon: Oh, we argue all the time... Seriously though, for the most part once we decide on a project we know the direction it is heading and we generally work together well to get to those goals.

Steve: Yeah, we argue over everything whilst a project is in development, but as Simon says, once we actually start shooting we just commit ourselves to the project and do it. Also, the work tends to divide up quite nicely as Simon is more interested in certain aspects of film production than I am, and vice versa.

DDUK: So what films have you been involved with so far?

Steve: Well, 'Insiders' is actually our first full length film as a partnership. Prior to that we basically shot a bunch of short fight scenes which we used to hone our skills, and these featured people like Anthony Dawe and Chris Jones who were able to use the scenes for their showreels. Simon usually played the bad guy, and we now joke that just about every up and coming martial arts performer in the UK seems to have clips of Simon being beaten up on their showreel!

Before meeting Simon, I had made a bunch of really bad martial arts action films, some of which you can see on the old Eastern Heroes Video Magazines. These were made in the days before digital video cameras and non-linear editing so they don't really stand up by today's standards, but there are one or two that I still like.

DDUK: Speaking of Insiders' (Phoenix-i's latest production), what did you find were the biggest challenges whilst making your first feature film?

Simon: The biggest challenge was time, actor availability, and of course budget. Oh, and Leicester seemed to be in the middle of a Siberian winter at the time. It was freezing!

Steve: What actually happened was that the central heating in my house broke down while we were filming, so at night we were plugging in the movie lights and sitting around them just to keep warm! But yeah, everything was a challenge, except for casting, where we were actually quite lucky in that all the actors we approached said yes straight away. But then scheduling them all was a nightmare.

DDUK: When it came to action, how did you approach the choreography and what styles did you look to incorporate?

Simon: For 'Insiders' we decided not to try and ape the HK films we love too much. The fighting had to be more straight forward and simple. So we didn't place any specific styles in there as such. Further the fights had to be made in a very short space of time. I like to try and have every camera shot looking good, even incidental ones, but that is very difficult in such a short space of time. We didn't have time for people being injured either. We aren't mad like some of the other guys out there. Any injury on the part of the actors would have totally thrown the film.

Steve: Yes, we actually stayed completely away from mimicking other films, apart from one moment where we had a location that resembled a scene in 'Who Am I?', so we had to incorporate just a couple of moves from that film. It's not obvious though.

DDUK: How do you think the finished product turned out?

Simon: All things considered it didn't turn out too badly.

Steve: There's very few things in it that make me think "I wish we'd done that better". Of course, that doesn't mean it's perfect, but we did as well as we could given the time and budget. Next time I will spend more time rehearsing scenes with the actors though.

DDUK: What have the responses been like so far?

Steve: Well the cast were all delighted when they saw the finished film, we had a premiere screening at a film festival in Lincolnshire which they all came to, and there was a great atmosphere and the festival organisers were very enthusiastic about the film. One other person I must mention is Mike Leeder, editor of Impact East. He's been a great supporter of the film, giving us a fantastic article in Impact.

DDUK: And how will it be available to the average punter?

Steve: We're working on that right now. Of course, any individual who wants to see it can always contact us at the moment at phoenix_i@btopenworld.com, but in terms of getting wider distribution, we are waiting to hear from various entities.

DDUK: What's your next project likely to be and can we expect to see Simon in front of the camera as well?

Steve: Simon has always been in front of the camera, he is just picky about the roles he chooses to take! He's always my first choice when we need a kung fu fighting bad guy, because he moves like Mark Dacascos and looks like Robert Patrick in T2! On the other hand, I will probably take a break from acting, at least in lead roles, because I hurt every single part of my body making 'Insiders' and was constantly ill! We're on the look-out for a good martial artist who can act and who is interested in playing a lead role in our next movie. Anyone who is interested can contact us.

Aside from movies, we've got some martial arts-related factual programmes coming out in time for Christmas. One is an instructional video featuring one of the UK's top martial artists, and the other is a very exciting project which features people who have worked with some of the world's greatest martial arts movie stars talking about their experiences and offering advice to newcomers. So if you've ever wondered what it was like to train with Bruce Lee, strangle Van Damme or work alongside Jackie Chan's stunt team, you won't want to miss this!

For further details on 'Insiders', check out his Steve Lawson's official website

Dragon's Den UK would like to thank Steve Lawson and Simon Wyndham for taking the time to speak with us.